Poppets & Dollbabies: Magic, Mischief, and Menace

Welcome to Meme's Well, A Burning Hallows production. We are your hosts, Laura and Kitty. We are back for a brand new season of depth, darkness, and debauchery. Starting off season three, we're stepping through the dollhouse door and entering the magical and terrifying land of puppets. Before we play House, we'd like to remind our listeners to tune into our sister podcast, the Otherworldly Oracle Official podcast. You can also visit my website, ver Tarot and numerology readings@alllaurarain.com. And don't forget to sign up on our Patreon for Book of Shadows pages that correspond to each of our episodes, get bloopers and other awesome extras. Disclaimer, this podcast is for educational purposes only, and the practices mentioned are in no way sanctioned or recommended by the hosts. Be aware this episode may include content that is inappropriate for listeners under the age of 18. Listener discretion is advised. ​Because we might be going rated R people. Just kidding. Rated R. Aw. You remember when that was like the scared, huh? I was gonna say, remember when? That was like the pinnacle of childhood when you were allowed to watch rated R movies? Oh my God. Of course. Yeah. Well, I walked in today and my son was watching some TV mature series, and I'm like, whoa, what is this? There were two people getting a little hot and heavy on the screen. I'm like, hold up, wait a second. How old is he now? Eight. He just saw, he thought it was something to do with five night, five nights at Freddy's, if you know what that is. Mm mm-Hmm. And speaking of dolls and puppets right. And just turned it on. I'm like, yeah, just because it's got puppets or, you know, like whatever arcade dolls on it doesn't make it appropriate. Okay. Then, so tell me, did you play with a lot of dolls when you were little? No, and I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Okay. You're gonna laugh. It's a, it's a hilarious antidote in my family. So I, I refuse to play with dolls because they were not babies, because babies don't have hair. Oh. Why do I feel like I know this story? It is hilarious though. So I put like, I had a couple that were bald. Mm-Hmm. But mostly I carried around my Cupe doll, if you know what that is. I remember those. Yeah. Yeah, that was, that was my doll baby. I mean, so yeah, you played with dolls then, but not like I didn't play with Cabbage Patch kids or Barbies or any of that. The only thing I did with Barbies was rip their heads off and put 'em on my fingers to play head binger. Oh my goodness. To eighties hairband music. Okay. Well then did you, did any, did these dolls or, or whatever they were, did they have any names? Nope. Nope. It's just my, just my, my baby. You didn't call 'em like twisted sister or something. Ah, that's so funny. I just thought that same phrase when I was thinking about the head bangers. Yeah. Yeah. That's funny. No, I didn't, I didn't. I definitely was. A child who played with a lot of dolls. I don't know. I just always did baby dolls, Barbie dolls. I had a baby doll named Hannah that I ended up giving to my daughter, and she completely destroyed. Like I think she colored in the belly button with like permanent marker. That's hilarious. And it was just a hot mess. I ended up getting rid of it. I was like, okay, that didn't work out. Now I had a lot of dolls. That doesn't mean I played with them. I got you. Like they sat on essentially my toy box. Mm-Hmm. In I, I guess it was like three rows deep, just because people would give them to me. Yeah. But I would just shove them up there and that's where they would live. Mm-Hmm. Yeah, I don't know. I always had a thing for dolls. I kind of still do. Maybe that's why we're doing this episode. Hey, look, I do have a handmade doll that my great-grandmother made for me when I was, I don't know, like two mm-Hmm. And it's, so it's a porcelain face. Mm-Hmm. And head. And then it's on a stand. I put it on my ancestor altar and my. My bonus babies, they're afraid of it. And they made me, they made me put it away. 'cause it creeps 'em out. Yeah, because it's, I mean, it's old like Yeah. I mean 80. So it is a 40-year-old doll. Yes. Okay. So I guess we get into it now. So if y'all haven't figured it out yet, this episode is all about pops and dolls. So there's actually a long history behind dolls and or poppets. So first of all, let's talk about the terms and how, in my opinion, this is just my opinion, something that I've kind of formulated on my own. I do not find the words doll and popit interchangeable specifically when it comes to magic. Mm-Hmm. And here's why. So. The word doll is theorized to have initially come from the word idle or be related to the word idol. Hmm. So when we think about idle, you know, we say, someone's my idol. You know that you put them up on a pedestal, you really look up to them. But back in the day, an idol was also like a statue or a representative of a, a deity or a spirit of some kind, right? Yeah, so the doll was in the image of someone or something that was held in high regard. The puppet is also related to the word puppet and is also meaning, it something that's controlled by strings, a doll or an image, or a toy that's controlled by strings. So to me, when I think if I'm, if I'm thinking doll versus pop, it, the doll has more power because it stands on its own. Right. Pop it related to puppet means that it's being controlled. So just something to keep in mind. Okay. I, I have a question. I don't know if we're gonna get to this later or not. Okay. So in terms of magic and magic use, what would be the difference between the two? Yeah, we're gonna get to that later. Okay. I have a whole thing on that. Gotcha. So you know what the Venus of Willendorf is? Yes. Very familiar. I believe I have my timing right. It's the Venus of Willendorf. For those who don't know, you could Google it and see an image and I'll probably put it on the Book of Shadows page as well, so everyone can see. But essentially it's a small image of a woman, a, a small statue or a doll, essentially, and it's a faceless doll, but it's, you know, very voluptuous, right? She has voluptuous breasts and Mm-hmm. Anyway, she is believed to have been from about 25,000 years ago. Does that sound right to you? That sounds about right. Yeah. Give or take, you know, a few millennia. Yeah. So it's funny though, when you look up like the history or the origins of the doll or pop it, she doesn't really come up, but. To me, I was thinking, okay, what's the first image that we know of that was like, made or like a, a, a statue of some kind that was made in human image that is essentially a doll. So this would be the oldest doll technically. Hmm. There's all kinds of theories about the Venus of Willendorf from Yeah, I know they're in. It's interesting too. Go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna say from. Doll pop it to goddess worship fertility idol, et cetera. There's lot of different, wait, I think when we're talking about dolls and, and, and in this regard, okay, let me start over. I wanna say more or less that it's kind of, so dolls have multiple purposes. Right? And I think I'm gonna get into this a little bit later too, but dolls were not only used as toys back in the day, but before that, prior to that they were more likely ritual items. Mm-Hmm. And in addition, they were using it for educational purposes. So some of the oldest dolls, like what we actually call a doll. Were the ritual paddle dolls from Ancient Egypt, which were, I believe about 5,000 years ago. Have you ever seen these? No, I haven't. They're literally, it's a wooden paddle that's made to look like a doll, like it has some kind of hair on the top of the head and very, you know, kind of. Rough features, but it's made to look like a doll, but it's a paddle. So I Google, I'm really sure what they were doing with the paddle part, but supposedly they were used specifically in ritual. Hmm. You can kind of draw your own conclusions of that, but there might have been some naughty rituals going on there. I don't know. But yeah, so that's interesting. So. So kind of crossing between the doll or the pop, what have you, being a toy, but also a ritual item in ancient Greece and Rome. When a young woman got married, she would offer up her doll to the goddess as an like, as an offering, or as a symbol too, of her transitioning from girl to woman. Hmm. Yeah. No. So I feel like while we today see dolls as just play things right, just a, a toy for a child, probably before they were used in play, they were, they were used as a ritual image of either a person or what, what people thought their deities looked like. This is interesting too. I'm still stuck on the paddle dolls. Did you look 'em up? Yeah, I've Googled. Yeah. I've Googled. No, I'm, I'm sitting here reading. I didn't know apparently as part of the cult of Hathor Mm-Hmm. Who was the goddess of love, right? Yeah. And apparently her priestesses had tattoos. Oh, that's cool. Of the paddle dolls. Oh, I didn't know that. See, I didn't read enough into the paddle doll thing, but that's, that's interesting. That's interesting. Yeah. Okay. I'll leave it alone now. Well, now I'm thinking like loop C, like whipping people to purify them and that kind of thing. Hmm. Like, you know, anyway, they was into some bsm. Okay. Let's say, that's exactly what I was thinking, but I'm glad you said it. This is MiiR as well. This is not Oh, that is true. We can say that here. That is true. We can, you're right. We can. We can. So, I mean, I could go on and on about the ancient history of dolls and idols and statues and things, but basically fast forward to medieval times and we just had a little chat about. Jata of Luxembourg. In our other worldly Oracle episode on the Women of the War of the Roses. Mm. And AOR was talking to us about how a pop with broken arms was supposedly used as evidence to accuse her of witchcraft. Yes. There's a lot of. Witches that are accused during the witch trial times or during the burning times, whatever you wanna call it, from middle Ages through to the early modern era that the pop, it is basically used as evidence that this woman or person was a witch, which is complete shi because who can't throw together a puppet. Exactly. You know what I mean? Like Okay. It's all, it's like, okay, you could have just made that. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And I tend to think, and I think I. Doreen Valiente, not virtue. Doreen Valiente talks about how witches were, first of all, they were probably a lot smarter than that, and they wouldn't have made a poppe out of something like cloth back in the day. They might've chosen something that they could have easily destroyed if they knew that someone was searching for evidence. So things like wax. Or sticks even that you could just throw into a fire and evidence is gone. Right. Or clay. Exactly. Yeah, that makes more sense. Yeah, I agree. I. It's actually in, now that I remember, it's actually in the Book of Shadows written by, and I know this is a controversial figure, but I'm gonna say it written by Gerald Gardner. He actually says, when you construct Poppets to make it out of wax or clay, or something that can be thrown into the fire. Hmm. Well look in our day and age though, so can cloth, I mean it, it can always be thrown into the fire, but. I don't think that we're under as much threat, correct. At the moment. Well, we aren't, but there are places in the world that are though actually. True. True. Yeah. And you're right. I mean, cloth will catch on fire and burn. But I think, you know, it's just about maybe the stuff that you're using inside and something that would melt or be disguised quickly. Oh yeah. 'cause the cloth is definitely not something you can rip up. Right. So you need some, like if somebody's coming, you need something like clay where you can chuck that across, you know, across. A field and it will shatter. Yeah. Or wax, you literally throw it into a fire and it, it's melt. You know, it's immediately melting. Yeah. Or even just put it in your hand to warm it up and you can form it into a ball. You know what I mean? A hundred percent. But I mean, in all reality, you could get rid of a cloth, pop it, so like when you think it through. Yeah, you could, but I'm just like, we're talking about ease of disposal. Right? I know. I know. Cloth would be the least easy. True to, to disguise or get rid of. No, I know. I'm just trying to imagine a scenario where like a witch hunter like breaks down the door or like, or you know, they're coming and you're like a quick, quick, like burn all the pops. I guess it depends on how much time you have, right? Mm. Yeah. Okay. Definitely. So Pops are mentioned in the Salem witch trials. Bridget, of course Bishop was actually accused of having a pop during the witch trials. Yeah, and on and on. Actually, if you go to Salem and you visit the witch house museum, they have, I don't know if it's an actual pop it from the time period, but it's, it's. It's a very nicely done replica, at least of a popit from that time period. Mm-Hmm. And it's a little creepy, you know, and it is made of cloth.. So what is your opinion of Popit magic in general? Is that something that you've done a lot? Define a lot? I don't know, a handful of times, five times, 10 times. Yeah, so I've, I've definitely used puppets for sure. I, how do I put this? I have never had use for them for in, in a baneful sense. Right, right. But that doesn't mean I wouldn't Yeah. If, if it came down to it. But I have used puppet magic a lot as far as. Healing. Mm-Hmm. As far as weaving peace and harmony and those kinds of things into the home space. Yeah. I love that. That's good. Yeah. So definitely yes. Yeah. I mean, they can be used for benevolent or otherwise. Types of magic. I think a lot of people get this misconception of puppets and, and dolls that, that it's all negative or all you know, used in attacks, I guess, but, Hmm, it doesn't, it, it doesn't have to be that, and a lot of people use it for like what you said, like for healing purposes, to draw love, to draw a friendship, to draw prosperity. It honestly, you could probably use it for any intention. Oh, you can? Yeah. I mean, it's just like anything, right? So your intention is the bottom line and what ingredients you choose to use with a pop. Even down to how you sew the stitches and things like that, if you're making it from scratch, puts more power into the doll for that particular intent. Correct? Correct. So it's, you know, to me it's just a physical form of a spell. Yes. And we're gonna get a little bit more into that too, that you keep working. Yeah. Yes. Okay. But before we go too deep into the magical aspect of it, let's go back and talk about the terrifying part of this, which is haunted dolls. So yeah, I'm not down, I'm not down with the haunted dolls. Okay. I. I'm a little macab, I guess, or weird when it comes to this 'cause I find it incredibly fascinating. And so first of all, let's talk about how a doll might become haunted. 'cause there's different ways, right? It's not just one thing. First of all, residual energy. This is one way a doll can be haunted in that, let's say a little girl has a doll, right? And she goes through something traumatic or tragic or just in general has a lot of emotions and. That energy is built up when she is holding onto her doll, or she's, you know, she's playing with this doll. The doll is her friend, essentially, and it takes on her emotions, her energetic vibrations. So in that way, a doll can be become haunted by her, her emotions kind of like a Poltergeist type scenario. Woo. In addition, because the fact that dolls are in the image of human beings, people theorize that it makes it much easier to become a vessel for different types of entities, including lower level entities as well as human spirits. Hmm, that makes sense. So, I mean, obviously if I'm a spirit and I'm trying to attach to something, I'm probably gonna go into something or attach to something that's more human, like, say like a doll than, you know, like a freaking mug on the counter. Right? Hmm. Okay. And then another way in which they can be haunted is through thought form. So this is when a spirit is purposely conjured into the vessel by a magical practitioner. And I mean, you could say this is a puppet as well, but I don't know. Like I said, I see poppets and dolls a little bit differently. Dolls kind of take on their own. Personality and in my opinion, can be a little bit stronger in ways than a pop because they're a little more sentient. Does that make sense? Like they, they can think on their own, especially if you're conjuring an intelligent spirit into a doll. Mm-Hmm, you're with me. But why would you do that? Why not? No, I'm just sitting here thinking like, I don't know. I, mm. What would I conjure into a doll? I mean, some people use dolls or just different vessels to house their familiar spirits. Mm. Okay. Yeah. So, oh, for example, I made a kitchen guardian, pop it. Mm-Hmm. And I asked the spirit of my house to use it as a vessel to watch over us in the kitchen and to protect the house. Oh, that makes sense. So meaning the spirit can come and go. It's not like it has to be trapped in it, it just uses it as a vessel to, you know, manifest its presence essentially. Right. So talking about haunted dolls, we know some of the more famous ones. Everyone's heard of, Annabelle, most people have. Mm. Have you? I, yes, but I don't know why. Okay. So there's a popular horror movie franchise called Annabelle. First of all, that's based on an actual. An actual doll, a haunted doll named Annabel. Mm-Hmm. And she also, I think she makes an appearance in the Conjuring franchise, but I could be wrong about that. So anyway, there were these two psychic, well, it, it was a psychic medium and her husband, the Warrens. Have you heard of them? Yes. Ed and Lorraine. Well, they had a doll named Annabelle that they housed in their home in like a glass case. It was actually a raggedy and doll that was named Annabelle that supposedly caused its owners a lot of misfortune, we'll say, I think bad dreams and all that kind of thing. So she was supposedly very haunted. So the Warrens took her on to. Lock the spirit up basically, and, and keep everyone safe from it. Hmm. So that's where the horror movies come, come in. And the Warrens are actually both passed away now. And so if you can believe us, Zach Baggins from that haunted show, I forget what it's called. Oh Lord. Is it ghosts or paranoid? I, I don't know. I honestly ghost hunters. Ghost hunters. Thank you. I'm not a fan of the guy to be fully honest, but he supposedly has it in his museum now, so who knows. It isn't a museum, correct? It is still locked up. Supposedly a cult museum. Mm-Hmm hmm. Well, the last research shows that it was at the, in the Warren's museum, but they've passed. They're, they no longer run that museum. And so I asked, I asked my mom, who's the paranormal? Like she's obsessed with all the paranormal uhhuh. She's the one that told me that's that Zach Baggin supposedly has her now. Aw, come on. We're on the paranormal street, y'all. Worked on the Paranormal Street is in the Conjuring. Just confirming. Yeah. And there there is a actual movie called Annabelle too though. But yes, thank you for confirming that. Okay, another haunted doll. Robert the doll. Is actually housed in a museum in Key West. My daughter tried everything to get me to go there and I was like, I'm not gonna go see Robert the adult. It's not happening. He is frightening. He, there's a lot of stories about when he was made and this little boy, he was made for this little boy and. It basically came to life essentially, like the little boy would see him running around the room and he would cause all this misfortune for this family. And you know, I think they tried to get rid of it and the other person had problems. And anyway, he's in a museum and people will go there to see him. And the legend has it that you have to ask him for his permission to photograph him. Or like some misfortune will befall you. So people still do that to this day. They'll ask him, is it okay if I take your picture? And people that work there claim that they can see his head moving and stuff. It's really scary. I'd be out. I know. So there's another doll supposedly in England that's haunted. Her name's Mandy. I don't know enough about her. Y'all can look her up, but I just wanted to address something real quick. On eBay, there's a Haunted Dolls Market. Okay. It's like a huge freaking thing. If you're interested, you can go on eBay and just type in haunted doll. There's like sellers out there now that are using. This is like a, just a means to make money, I think. I don't believe that 90% of these dolls are actually haunted, but they use these tactics to sell the dolls. Like they tell this whole story and they say, oh, well, I use the EMF reader and it shows that this doll is haunted, blah, blah, blah. I don't think most of these dolls are haunted. I think it's actually more rare for a doll to be haunted than, than not, you know? Mm-Hmm. That's just my opinion. So first we determine our intention, which we've talked about. And I als I also wanna say, for me, I'm deciding is this a doll? Like will it have its own kind of individual personality and essence, or is it a pop? And I'm creating this for a specific purpose and controlling it completely. Does that make sense? Yes. And basically, puppet magic works in the form of sympathetic magic mostly. Would you agree with that? Mm-Hmm. Yeah. I think also I was gonna say also contagious magic as well. A little bit. Yeah. It could be. Because I'm just thinking like when you, or when I have used like a healing puppet like you, so the things that you, stuff inside that puppet are all healing intended. Yeah. Right. That makes sense. So the, so the more, the more things that are healing oriented. I, I don't know if, Hmm. I think it's both sympathetic and contagious. Yeah, I get what you're saying. I mean it, yeah. You're picking up what I'm putting down. Yeah, I am. Okay. I agree with you. But sympathetic magic when it comes to, if you're targeting a specific person or yourself and you use personal effects. Right. If you're creating the pop in a person's image of whether it be yourself or someone else, Hmm. That would be the sympathetic aspect, right. Yep. Okay, thanks. And then if you're creating a vessel specifically for a spirit, like what we've been talking about, you're obviously gonna wanna choose things to align with that intention too. So things that the spirit might like or make it feel more comfortable. Any herbs or items that might just be in, in alignment with, if it's you're familiar, like does your familiar, like I. Lavender, you know, it could be anything. We also talked about different materials that you can use. Literally, you could use anything to make a doll that you wanted to, but fabric. You could use new fabric. You could use old fabric from like old clothing, old t-shirts. I've used an apron. Hmm, A vintage apron that I cut up and, and made into a pop it using a cookie cutter too. And you can use wax, clay sticks. Stones, like literally anything. Potatoes, people make potato pops. I would recommend dryer lint. Yeah. I was gonna say, I, I wanna bring that up. You had mentioned that a while back. Yeah. Because look, if you're, especially if you are making a puppet for like family protection Mm-Hmm. Or anything family oriented. Dryer lint is an easy way to collect something from everyone in the house. Right. That makes sense. Mm-Hmm. So that's, yeah. And then of course, because it's lint, you get a nice stuffing with it. I love that. That's a great idea. And you're recycling and reusing, right? Yes. Definitely. So if I have, I have entire bags of lin. Oh yeah. I have a little tin on the side of my dryer. Yeah. And my bonus kids are like, why do you collect all that? I'm like, none of your business. That's, that's cute. I love it. So if you're using fabric, obviously you have to have some kind of stuffing to go in there. So cotton lint, as all Laura just said, you can also use hair. Mm. Also remnants of fabric or remnants of yarn thread. Anything that you can stuff in the frigging but of the pop, it will work. Right. Herbs? Yeah. Okay. In addition to creating your pop, you wanna feed the popit to increase the energy. So for example, as an, you know, you can offer something to it. If there's a spirit inside, you can sing to it. You can hold it in your arms and pray over it. You can help me out here. What else You got? Anything? Music? Yeah. Definitely. But I mostly just use oils. I was gonna say oils, but I didn't, yeah. Okay. I didn't know, I don't use oils on poppets. I use it on other things. But does you don't feel like that ruins the fabric or anything? Mm, I guess depending on the oil, right? Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends, but also like. It also depends too, if you sew the whole thing shut or if you leave an opening. Because generally true, the oil goes on the in internal Correct stuff. Good point. Very good point. Yeah. So if you need to be putting Think more inside, feeding more inside, then you would wanna leave a little, little slit open. Yeah. Or do some Velcro or something, or a button. Or button snap or something. Yeah. I don't know. I've only ever closed mine up, but that's a, that is a valid point you bring up. Hmm. I know sometimes I have good ideas. They're, they're few and far between, whatever. Okay. So after that, and you're, what, whatever your intention was, is manifested. Obviously you're gonna wanna properly dispose of the doll if that is what you want to do. I mean, sometimes you wouldn't dispose of the doll. It just depends on the intention, right? If it's a doll and it's meant to watch over your child, then obviously you don't wanna dispose of it ever, right? I mean, if you're using a pop that's meant to bind someone from doing harm and then you know it's run its course, we're no longer worried about this being a threat or what have you, then, then it's time to think about how, what do you wanna do with a doll? Laura, do you want to talk a little bit about voodoo dolls? Well, I, I just have a question and I think that you can clarify this. Okay. So sometimes in our modern world, our modern day, we get a little testy about puppets and dolls. Mm hmm. And gatekeeping and all those wonderful things. Oh boy. Okay. So my question to you is are you, is using puppets and dolls a closed practice? No. Okay. Can you explain a bit about why? Okay. So when most people think of magic having to do with dolls or puppets, the image of the voodoo doll comes into play. Yes. Pops in pretty much everyone's minds because that's what Hollywood has presented to us over the years. Yes. Thank you. Pop culture. That it only has to do with voodoo and that, you know, it's only used for harm. You know, the image of a doll with the pin sticking out of it and the stitched face and all that. While I'm not saying that that's not a real thing or that voodoo who do, you know, I'm not saying they don't use dolls because I'm sure they do that aspect, maybe how they're creating it and what they're using, what they're saying, all that, that part is probably a closed practice, right? We could say it's closed. However, the use of dolls or puppets in general, and pretty much anyone's practice is not a closed practice because. They've been used for ritual purposes in every culture all around the world for, you know, thousands of years. Since the beginning of time in memorial. Yes. And as we discussed in this episode, I mean, whether these accused witches in the medieval times actually use those puppets or not, the idea came from somewhere. And we do have evidence that Magical practitioners used puppets and dolls for, for magical purposes, basically. I mean, even in Rome, now that I'm thinking about it, and in Germany, we have thermal springs that were ruled over by specific deities, healing deities, and people would go to those springs and throw in an image of themselves like in a doll size, right? They would throw that image into the thermal springs of themselves in order to ask that deity to heal them. I mean, and that was in Germany, you know, so, you know, we have evidence of it all over the place. So no, it's not closed practice. Okay. I just wanted to clarify that just in case anybody's out there listening and not basically pigeonholing what we're saying and thinking that we are appropriating from a culture and it's a closed practice and et cetera, et cetera. It is not. No. No. Like I said, if you're, if you're, you know, saying words that they might use in the voodoo practice and using ingredients that they might use and appropriating things in that way, then yeah. But in general, making puppets and dolls of your own with your own intentions and ingredients and things is not closed. Okay. Okay. So what about doll houses? Okay. This is like, it's a modern thing, I think, but I've seen a lot of people creating like witches doll houses on social media. You can find it on Instagram, Pinterest, all that kind of stuff. But the idea is what if you created your own little doll house to house multiple spirits. I feel like maybe not all those spirits would get along. Well, I mean. Like, you, you gotta be, I don't know, you gotta be careful. Come on, people need to fuck around and find out sometimes, you know. Ha, ha, ha, ha. You're never gonna learn if you don't fuck around. You won't find out, will ya? Listen people, obviously, create your doll houses responsibly, alright? Oh man, that's a shirt. That's the next design. Yeah. Friends don't let friends create dollhouses irresponsibly. Exactly. No, but for real, like all that aside, it is a fun project or craft to do with a kid. Like if, if you have a girl that's really into dollhouses or even like a teen girl who's just into making things and being crafty, seems really fun to me. You can take craft kits for dollhouses and completely like witchify them. You know, one thing I have seen with dolls that and this is fairly recently that I've seen happening that I think is really cool that I'm like actually toying with the idea of doing it myself is there. I've seen witches who are sourcing old. Dolls, like, for example, like the American girl doll and then they are turning them into goddess statues for lack of a better. Oh, that's crazy. I haven't seen that. Yeah. So they're turning, like, I've seen an American girl doll turned into Breed, for example. That's crazy. I can't even picture that, but I believe you. So I'll actually she's on my Facebook. I can't remember her name off the top of my head, but if I find it, I will send it to you because I was like, Oh, that's a, that's a pretty good idea. Interesting. Like as a new and different ways to venerate your deity. Yeah. That's cool. That's cool. I like it. Yeah. I have three dolls that were my great grandmothers and they're all porcelain face and one is really old. It looks like it's at least a hundred years old. And, but mainly I just associate them with ancestral work, but that's interesting to take something and upcycle it and reuse it in that way. I love, I love the creativity in witchcraft too, because you can literally take anything and make it something else, you know? For your magical purposes. I love that. I know. I love it. So exciting. All right. Well, this has been illuminating, terrifying in the, yeah, and, and a bit terrifying. Just quickly, I Googled what, what was that Robert the doll? Yeah. He's labeled the world's most terrifying doll. Yeah. He's he's it's creepy. My daughter was like, come on, nothing will happen. I'm like I ain't doing it. That's where I draw the line. I would have been like, listen, Zach. Exactly. Exactly. Should we wrap it up? We should. We'd like to thank our listeners for joining us for this. First episode of season three and Mimir as well. Hit the subscribe button and the bell to be notified of future shows. Don't forget. You can reach us anytime to share feedback, show ideas, or ask questions by emailing us at burning hallows productions, all one word at gmail. com or going to Patrion forward slash burning hallows and signing up. And remember, despite our sweet reputations, we really have the hearts of men on our altars that we keep in jars.